Forge Leadership Podcast. Episode 8 : Rob Parsons OBE and Katharine Hill

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Rob Parsons OBE and Katherine Hill

An interview with the leaders of Care for the Family – Rob Parsons OBE and Katharine Hill in which they explore issues facing families today, how leaders can make a difference and how character, integrity and vulnerability have been critical in the success of this incredible charity.

Simon Barrington: [00:00:28] So today on the Forge Leadership podcast I’m joined by Rob Parsons who’s the Chief executive of Care for the Family and Katharine Hill who is the UK director of the same charity – a charity that’s been going for nearly 30 years now and specialises in a national movement to support people in marriages and family life with parenting and bereavement skills. Rob and Katherine welcome to the podcast thanks.

Simon Barrington: [00:00:55] Rob, tell us how Care for the Family started and the original vision and how you got involved.

Rob Parsons: [00:01:01] Well I was a senior partner in a quite a large legal practice at the time I was about 40 years old and I was already taking a day a week off the legal practice to help run a church on a vast housing estate about 20000 people.

Rob Parsons: [00:01:16] And seen incredible needs in families. And I noticed that there were lots of charities that came to the bottom of the cliff and put families together when they broke up and they were doing a great job and I wanted to try and help in that. But I realized that there was a tremendous need for somebody put a fence at the top of the cliff to begin talking about not only rescuing people but prevention. And so we began Care for the Family with that very much in mind. How could we really encourage people to put strength into the relationship before they were married. How could we encourage people to come on the marriage courses while their marriages were still good. How could we get people on courses to bringng up teenagers when the kids were 6 7 8 9 and that really captured my imagination. So one in 1988 actually Care for the Family was born.

Simon Barrington: [00:02:07] Wow and Katharine tell us how you got involved in the organisation.

Katharine Hill: [00:02:10] Well Simon I used to be a family lawyer so I was involved doing an helping people through divorce and then there was custody care proceedings all the kind of tough stuff really of family breakdown and then and then I stopped doing that and had four children and I think at that time I realised that I yeah I felt sort of I wanted to do something that would help people and a bit further upstream.

Katharine Hill: [00:02:40] And yeah I think there’s a really important job for lawyers in the way that they manage family breakdown when it happens but I just really wanted to make a difference so to help couples – it’s not always possible but help them work at their relationships. And yeah I ended up coming to this – a long story and but through an amazing series of meetings and I started working for Care for the Family and I began working one day a week on a project that was in relation to marriage preparation and trying to encourage couples who are married not just in the church but in a registry office to do that just when they are weak and then that was 12 13 14 years ago.

Simon Barrington: [00:03:22] Wow. And Rob over the nearly 30 years you know you’ve invested in this early intervention and prevention ministry for families what kind of changes have you seen in family life and what new challenges exist today that maybe you had never thought of maybe 30 years ago.

Rob Parsons: [00:03:42] Well I think in some ways family life is very very similar but what we’ve seen increasingly is an increasing breakdown of the extended family. I mean for example when I was a kid you lived near your grandparents perhaps Aunties and Uncles and I think families in those days would counsel one another so a woman would say my babies crying all night. Then the woman next door or the Autie across the road would say that’s pretty normal or my husband dring me crazy. And people would talk about those things. And increasingly that’s not the case. We have more communication than ever but families live very isolated lives. Sometimes a couple will have their first child hundreds of miles away from their own parents and the extended family and I think to some extent Care for the Family stands in the shoes of the extended family. So increasingly we’ve seen the need for that. I also think increasingly I’m seeing the idea that love is just a feeling I think sometimes people will say to me on a radio or television interview. What do you think the greatest threat to family life is and I think it is this increasing idea that love is just a feeling. And when I stop feeling in love then I walk away and find somebody else and we begin again. But you know I go to write my books in a little cottage overlooking Carmarthen Bay, Simon, in West Wales and one day I was on the beach it was an August Day the sun was shining and it was just beautiful. And as I’m walking back to the cottage I say to an old fishermen – it’s idyllic isn’t it. He said you should see it in January. The next day it was equally beautiful. But I felt the sun and the sea and the hills whisper to me would you love us in January and January love comes to every relationship. Where somehow we have to fight to keep love alive. Where somehow we have to fight to keep love alive where we have to love not just because of but in spite of to love not just with our heart with our will and increasingly I think in modern society we are less willing to even try that. Now I know it’s not possible or even desirable to keep every relationship together. Nevertheless unless were prepared to fight to keep love alive we’ll never have a long term relationship with with anybody.

Katharine Hill: [00:06:00] I think that’s right. We often talk at Care for the Family about the consumer society that we live in and my mobile phone break recently and I took it to be repaired and I just got given a new one there and that way of thinking has crept into the way that we look at our relationships and then we apply that kind of consumer mentality to it. And so were passionate about giving couples and parents the tools to be able to work through the difficulties that come to all of us.

Simon Barrington: [00:06:27] That’s great. What kind of tools do you give families to help them persevere through when they hit those January moments. What kind of interventions are you involved in and what kind of impact do you see those tools having on families and family life.

Katherine Hill: [00:06:45] Well in terms of the actual things that we do so we go aroundthe country speaking at events. We have courses we have books we have loads of stuff that is on our website and the kind of thing that we talk about we come along as fellow travellers we say this is not just you you’re not the only couple that have drifted apart and hit that creeping separateness. You’re not the only couple there just wondering where it all went wrong whether your teenager or a struggling with a toddler or whatever and sometimes just giving couples that that knowledge that they’re not alone is all that they need and they go away just feeling more confident but we give some practical tools as well and we we talk about skills for communication, how to argue well, in a way that that the issue is resolved. How to forgive in the marriage ones we talk about the importance of the sexual relationship how to show each other that we love each other all those kind of practical things as well. And we always say at our events if people just go away with one thing that they can do differently then it will have been worth coming.

Simon Barrington: [00:07:51] That’s brilliant, absolutely brilliant, I love that. Love what you guys are doing. It struck me Rob as you were talking about our own families and parenting and staying together and persevering that there are a lot of similarities between being a leader and leading in a family isn’t there. You know there must have been times over 30 years when you were really challenged in growing the ministry and groeing as a leader and you’ve both been involved in leading in in a corporate sector as lawyers and now in the charities sector. What some of the challenges you faced as leaders and have you faced up to those.

Rob Parsons: [00:08:33] That’s right. I mean we have getting onto 100 staff now we have five offices and all those things bring enormous opportunity but incredible challenges and you are absolutely right Simon it’s very much like being married. I remember in the early days you get together with a group of fellow leaders you see why we all get also so well don’t we aren’t we lucky and why do other leaders have so much trouble and then suddenly out of a clear blue sky you know trouble will come. One will upset somebody one will feel betrayed, somebody will feel insecure or threatened and suddenly having to deal without that whole thing of relationships and can you stay together can you move through the difficulty is it time to part. Can I actually forgive and those are very real issues for every organisation but I’m telling you the relationships are more important than anything. No business can thrive while the leaders are not in good relationship. They can make it over one or two year but they cannot thrive long term. And that’s the truth for a charity for a Church for whatever kind of organisation relationships are paramount.

Katharine Hill: [00:09:41] And we invest in those a lot at Care for the Family in terms of the leadership team but also in relationships with the managers. Just everybody together whatever role that is and we really try and invest in that and hold that highly.

Simon Barrington: [00:09:55] So what kind things do you do to build that sense of family within your organisation of relationship within the organisation. What’s the rhythm of your life and the pattern of your life together as an organisation.

Rob Parsons: [00:10:07] Well you know we we meet together we’re an organisation with Christian roots so we we pray together. We acknowledge that we’re a bright enough or wise enough to sort out all our own hassles and even spot the incredible opportunities that are there.

Rob Parsons: [00:10:24] So we we do we pray together. But Stephen Covey talked about something called the emotional bank. He talks about in relationships you have to get stuff in the bank for when the hard times come. And that’s true if you are a parent for example we see that with regard to bringing up kids particularly in the teenagers years rules without relationship lead to rebellion. You’ve got to have relationship in the bank. So actually three or four times a year we go away for a couple nights together we brainstorm we kind of blue sky think but we also play games together. We muck about with laugh together we talk and have a glass of wine together.

[00:11:05] We are trying to get stuff in the bank because we know that however good we are and however much we care for each other. How ever much we’re committed hassle will come we will hurt each other. We’ll let each other down and we need stuff then in that emotional bank.

Katharine Hill: [00:11:19] Yeah so that going away together that’s the four of us on the leadership team but as well as that we have days where we get all the managers together and then we get the rest of staff together and then twice a year we also go away together for what we call our staff conference and there’s a wonderful mixture there of fun we had and it’s a knockout competition last year with lots of funny games but some hard and serious stuff as well some incredible stories of some of the families that we’ve been able to help and people find yet the people that made me work in the office and aren’t on the front line and they don’t have contact with the families just then really seeing the difference that their job makes so and I think the other thing we have we have three values that we talk about a lot. They are vulnerability, the next one is honouring the least so treating everybody with respect. And the third one generosity of spirit and again that’s something that is really owned I think throughout the organisation. We don’t always get it right but that’s what we aim for.

Simon Barrington: [00:12:24] That’s really interesting that you vulnerability as one of your values – tell me more about that.

Rob Parsons: [00:12:30] Oh dear. You know this came out of a personal experience for me really just after the birth of my son Llyod, so we’re going back now well over 30 years. My wife Diane became quite ill. She went through a depressive illness for a while. The immune system crashed and and you know we I was a hot shot lawyer I was I could make it happen for other people. People came to me and Rob would fix it but I couldn’t fix this. And I remember one night kneeling with a friend in the darkness of my home. Diane was in bed upstairs and and just praying and crying and thinking I’m totally vulnerable. But what we discovered was this that two of the most precious words you can say to another person are “me too” I’ve been there. My teenagers are giving me a tough time – me too. We’re going through a tough time in our marraige – we’ve been through that. I’m in trouble financially. I remember we struggled and the incredible thing if you do that in the right spirit you don’t depress people you actually set them free. And so I spoke to about 20 of our volunteers some time ago and I said look you can work for Care for the Family and we’re grateful but if you’ve got a perfect marriage and you resent being here because you could be walking in the moonlight with your husband or you got three perfect kids and they save their pocket money for Shakespeare study guides and you can’t wait to share your gems with the world you’re probably not our kind of person. We need those who have cried a little. Those who have had broken hearts and and Simon that is very important for us in Care for the Family. The good book says when we’re weak we’re strong. And I believe that with all my heart.

Simon Barrington: [00:14:05] I resonate so much with that, Rob and just a few weeks ago we had Sim Dendy on the podcast and he was just saying that vulnerability is just a long word for saying I need help. It’s so true isnt it you know we need one another we need that support and actually vulnerability opens up access for people to our own pain and therefore allows people to come alongside us and engage with us on the journey.

Rob Parsons: [00:14:30] But you know for a leader Simon it’s a little bit tricky because on the one hand you want to be vulnerable but on the other hand you’ve got to lead. When you’re in the middle of a war you don’t particularly want Churchill to be vulnerable . You know, so I think for every leader there’s that choice but I’m confident you need a small group of people around you who know you well that you desperately can be vulnerable but at the same time as that you have to lead and sometimes you can’t wear your heart on your sleeve with everybody you can’t be moping around everywhere and you have to have the guts to just sometimes go for it I think even when you don’t feel like it.

Simon Barrington: [00:15:09] That’s great advice. Great advice.

Simon Barrington: [00:15:12] In terms of other things you look for in people you bring into the organisation you look for them to share your values about vulnerability and generosity etc but what else do you look for as you’re hiring good people to come in you shared a little bit about broken hearts but what else do you look for. How do you how do you do the recruitment bit of making sure you have people who really aligned with with what you’re about as an organization.

Katharine Hill: [00:15:41] So in in the interviews we always come back to something Bill Hybels talks about how he talks about you want competence you obviously want someone who has the skills to be able to do the job that you’re recruiting them for but more than that because some skills can be taught as we’re looking at the heart. We are looking for the chemistry right chemistry that we kind of click with them you know they like us we like them and they fit in with our culture.

Katharine Hill: [00:16:08] And character. Absolutely and I think we want to in the way that we lead we want an organisation where when people are doing their best they’re trying their hardest and there’s that wonderful phrase isn’t it. We work as if it depended on us and we pray as if it depended on God and that’s in the heart of what we did but also a place where actually we’re all going to make mistakes and where people feel able to admit that and then we all rally together and and try and sort out whatever it is that’s gone wrong. But we work quite hard at that as well.

Rob Parsons: [00:16:54] We do I mean we try to recruit what we call the best people but that’s a given. Character is vital. We took on a guy about a year ago who was helping us in the whole area over you know with the new digital world and all was happening. And I sat down with him before we started and I said Look you’re a million miles ahead of just about everybody else who’s applied and we want you to join us and we believe you can do this job effectively. But I’m telling you now if you are a prima-donna. If you’re difficult to get on with if you’re angular you won’t get on with us and it would be far better although we’d love to have you. If you didn’t join us because we’ll drive each other crazy. What I’ve discovered Simon is that you can say that in an interview. It is very hard to say six months down the road here or even six weeks down the road. But we’re very clear that relationships matter. The worse. I’ve seen organisations die on the vine because people just can get on with it.

Simon Barrington: [00:17:58] Now you’ve both been in business and have been successful in business. Rob you wrote a book a number of years but I recall the heart of success about how do you make your in business without losing in life. Do you see that as a real tension for people who are seeking to love their families but also be successful in work. And what advice do you give to leaders who maybe are winning away and losing at home.

Rob Parsons: [00:18:27] I wrote that book and another book called The 60 minute father out of mistakes I felt I’d made when my children were very small. I think I was just too busy I was trying to say yes to everybody but sometimes when we say yes the whole world we say no to those to whom we have primary responsibility. I remember it very well. I would come home late at night my wife had long since given up trying to talk to me I was busy in the law practice but two small children would be trying to share their day with me but I’d be on another planet practically comatose until the telephone rang. Suddenly I’d come alive. And I think a little boy and a little girl were saying you know this really matters to him. Simon, three things kept me in that lifestyle longer than they should have. Number one, I wanted them to have more than I had. We had a very poor childhood and I wanted them to have more. One psychologist put it well we’re so busy given our kids what we didn’t have. We don’t know how to give them what we did have. Secondly I used to say to myself a slower day is coming and life won’t always be this busy. That of course is a total illusion and thirdly I forgotten how fast the door of childhood closes. I’d be reading my little girl a bedtime story, the onhe would ring downstairs, and she’d say Daddy please don’t go I’ll be back in a moment. I’d take those stairs five at a time and make the phone call and after an hour I’d remember I not finished the bedtime story. I’d rush back upstairs and the light would be on and the book would be by her head but little eyes had fought to stay awake as long as they possibly could.

Rob Parsons: [00:19:55] And you know what Simon I’ve done some interesting things since then I’ve been as I say a senior partner of a law office I’ve been involved in murder trials I think I’ve written twenty five books, I’ve lectured all over the world. All those things have invovled me having 10’s of thousands of business calls. Almost all have been described as urgent. I can’t remember one, not one that couldn’t have waited ten minutes whilst I finished a bedtime story. And one day it dawned on me unless I changed the things I that mattered most to me were slipping through my fingers and am grateful to God that I did manage to change.

Katharine Hill: [00:20:28] I think we have to be ruthless actually in some of the decisions that we make. So it’s not just when our children are little so we have four children and they grown now. But the role that I have at the moment and that Rob has as well involves quite a lot of travel quite a lot of being away from home when we’re speaking at events and I’ve learnt we’ve learnt and we we often get it wrong but we have to be really ruthless. Richard and I, that’s my husband have to be ruthless about allowing space for each other when one of us has been away and we come back. Otherwise we just don’t connect, we miss each other we get irritable and I think gosh you know working its all very well working for Care for the Family but what about our family so I think it’s something we have to continually I certainly have to continually keep in mind and work at and adapt because we have different seasons of family life and different seasons of work as well.

Simon Barrington: [00:21:23] It’s one of those things because you have to have constant attention to really isn’t it, you know the seasons do change don’t they and things that work in one season don’t necessarily work in another. How do you help families through that.

Rob Parsons: [00:21:35] You’re absolutely right and you know the season that hits some families, well if they have kids every family will be normally the empty nest and suddenly the kids are gone. One woman wrote to me and said suddenly I walked past a too tidy bedroom and unless you built your relationship with your partner, your husband, your wife before that happens suddenly you look at each other and think well who are you because you built your whole life around your children so it’s as well not just to live in the season that we’re in but to look ahead to the seasons that are the coming and realise that you have to plan a little for those as well.

Katharine Hill: [00:22:15] And I think some of the leadership lessons that we learn in the workplace and we touched on this already, but you know the planning and the thinking ahead and making time and all those things they apply in the home just as much but obviously in a different context.

Simon Barrington: [00:22:32] That’s so true isn’t it actually as parents we’re leading mini organisations in fact is there enough done do you think at a national level to invest in parents and the leadership skills that they actually need to leave the family is well.

Katharine Hill: [00:22:51] That’s an interesting question, Simon and we work a little bit in the area of policy and I head that up and we quite often find ourselves in London sitting around a table with some of the other third sector organisations such as Relate, Marriage Care, One plus One, The Tavistock Centre and other organizations that receive government funding to do this work and I think the need is so great that there is always more that can be done but the most amazing resource is available through volunteers. We work a lot through volunteers and a lot through churches and if all the churches closed down and all the volunteers weren’t there anymore then I think the government would realise what a massive amount of support is given to families on that basis and we love working like that and we have befriending, we have projects that are run by volunteers and on the ground courses and I think the more that the government can do in that area the better but obviously, you know, resources are tight. And I think yes we could always be doing a lot more.

Simon Barrington [00:23:58] Now both of you have a wealth of experience of leading in life from home and leading in large organisations and making an incredible impact on family life across the UK. What didn’t they teach you in business school or university that you’ve had to learn that you wish you could pass on to young leaders as they’re thinking about starting their own charity or starting their own business Rob. What one of two things would you pass on to young leaders that you wish you’d known when you were you know starting Care for the Family when you were 40.

Rob Parsons: [00:24:38] Well I think probably we’re all a lot more insecure than we think that their leaders are particularly insecure. But we have to be a little careful about that. Somebody once said If you really want to achieve, surround yourself with people were better than you. Now because of our insecurity we don’t often do that. We want people who are worse than us because then we could control them. But if I do that I am as good as it gets. But if I can have the security to surround myself with people who are better there’s almost no end to what I can do and I’ll tell you what if I had learnt that a lot faster I would have made progress a lot faster too.

Simon Barrington: [00:25:20] This is about identity. Do you think is it about that sense of knowing who you are and being secure in your own skin.

Rob Parsons: [00:25:28] You got to know you got to know who you are but the truth is that for most of us and I know very few exceptions to this. That comes with the years you get more secure or you you’re more comfortable in your own skin and when you begin you’re trying to prove yourself to the whole world. When I see people who really achieve they are teachable they are a strange mixture of incredible leaders so they are very positive and you would follow them you know well anywhere in life but they are teachable. They are willing to learn. They are willing to change and certainly Katherine and I have discovered that over the years as we have sought to employ people.

Katharine Hill: [00:26:07] And I think Simon what you are saying about identity and that would definitely that would definitely be one thing for me. I think I wish people had explained I wish I had learnt earlier on how to be in a meeting where there wasn’t consensus and how to make my point well and then just leave it. So I would in the early days veer between not saying anything because I felt totally intimidated and or making a point and then people didn’t seem to be agreeing. So being like a dog with a bone going back and back and keeping on and on rather than just making it and then saying, okay, I’ve made my point, other people made theirs and not taking it personally. So those would be yeah. Those would be a few things I I wish I’d learnt earlier.

Rob Parsons: [00:26:55] And you have to have the guts to go for things. You know I love the story of a woman that said to her C.E.O. but boss what if the new idea doesn’t work. He said no problem Doris, we’ll just go back to what wasn’t working before.

Simon Barrington: [00:27:10] So how does your senior team work together so Kathrine you’re on the Senior Team with Rob and you have a couple of others as well. How do you work together and get the best out of one another so that you are recruiting people better than yourself so that you are better than the sum of the parts so that you can go further and also so that you know there’s a legacy left in the organisation that is long lasting and sustainable. How do you achieve that between the four of you.

Katharine Hill: [00:27:37] Well I think some of the stuff that we’ve already been talking about I think we we worked hard with that so there are four of us. Some of it is about us knowing what we bring to the party knowing what our gifts are and being secure in that. So Rob’s role is obviously the Chief Exec, the Chairman, the Founder and and then my role is similar to his in terms of its outward facing, the writing and the speaking and that sort of thing. And the other two bob Robin and Paula and they’re much more operational and they’re really gifted at that. And so it’s kind of knowing how yet leaving them to do those bits that they do best and them allowing us to did bits we do best and we meet together regularly we work hard at our relationship and generally we don’t move forward on what we got we put on any big decisions unless we’re all in agreement.

Rob Parsons: [00:28:34] Yeah. I I love to do that. We we try to lead we try to move forward but the Bible the Bible says there is wisdom in many counsellors and honestly it’s difficult because sometimes if you’ve got a difficult person on the leadership team they’ll always pull you back. You know you always say well let’s move forward to the next week let’s put it on the agenda for next time. So you want to lead but largely I believe there is wisdom in many counsellors and if possible really try to take the whole team together as one and we laugh.

Katherine Hill: [00:29:08] We have a lot of fun.

Rob Parsons: [00:29:09] I’ll tell you. Be careful who joins that leadership team. Because the addition of one person to that leadership team will affect it enormously. You better make sure that they are of the character particularly that will allow you to move forward together.

Katharine Hill: [00:29:27] And I think we try we try and support each other personally as well. And so you know there’s obviously in every family stuff goes on and you know we’re not a church we’re an organisation but certainly within the leadership team there is that sense of accountability and sharing for each other.

Simon Barrington: [00:29:49] I love what you guys have been sharing about vulnerability and self-awareness in a leader and perseverance and character. Just just incredible. As we wrap up and look to the future. What are you both excited about for Care for the Family as you look to the future what what what hope do you have for the future of the family. And what are are you excited about in terms of what you are both involved in.

Rob Parsons: [00:30:15] Well just sparing Katharine’s blushes I’m excited about a project that Katherine is is really up to her neck in the morning. She’s just written an incredible book called “Left to their own devices” – confident parenting in an age of screens. And you know Simon the the whole social media explosion is effecting families and particularly our children enormously. There are lots of opportunities with it but many many dangers and many of our teenagers are not doing too well and even younger children and in the family we really want to help parents and young people and families in that whole social media thing and to make the best of it. Katherine’s spearheaded that initiative and I am incredibly excited about both the opportunities and helping families miss some of the big dangers.

Katharine Hill: [00:31:05] And in terms of organisation. We’ve always been you know doing little bits and pieces in this area, we’ve you know produced podcast podcasts like this but I think increasingly and in the way that we’re structured we we’re endeavouring to be more flexible to be able to respond as things happen and be able to reach many many more families through alls that available in the digital age.

Rob Parsons [00:31:32] I met a woman at one of our events not long ago and she’s 30 years old she says : When I was a little girl your books used to be on my parents bookshelves and then she’s says my parents got into trouble in their marriage and they watched your marriage matters video. I remember filming that in the Wembley Conference in 1991 Simon. And then she said we got married and someone have us your 60 minute marriage. And then we got into trouble in our marriage and we watched the 21st century marriage DVD and now we run your marriage courses. I felt about 82.

Rob Parsons: [00:32:01] But the truth is we’ve been around a long time even Kathrine’s been around a long time doing this stuff but you do get that sense then of not just history but legacy and I love that you know.

Rob Parsons: [00:32:16] Helen Keller as you probably know was sick from the time she was a toddler she was blind and mute she learnt to speak by holding her fingers against her tutor’s larynx. sHee graduated from Cambridge College Massachusetts she formed the Helen Keller home for blind children she lectured all over the world. One day she got off a plane in Los Angeles a journalist put a microphone in the face and said Miss Keller – can you imagine anything worse than being blind. Oh yes she said. Being able to see and have no vision. I wan’t Care for the Family to have that vision Simon, I believe in it.

Simon Barrington: [00:32:50] Rob Parsons and Katherine Hill thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. So much wisdom there from years of experience and I know I’ve appreciated and my family has appreciated your ministry and all you do to strengthen family life strengthen parents strengtheng those going through bereavement, strengthening single parent families. Thank you so much for what you do. May God bless you.

Rob Parsons: [00:33:19] Thank you. Thank you.

Peter Wooding: [00:33:22] Thanks for listening. We hope you found that conversation really stimulating and engaging. You can listen to more episodes or subscribe at There will be no episode next week because it’s Christmas Day but we’ll be back on New Year’s Day January 1st 2018 with motivation and encouragement to start the New year. A very Happy Christmas from all of us at Forge Leadership and see you next year.

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